IPodcast yeDiplomat yeSayensi: Sir Peter Gluckman malunga neengcebiso zeSayensi, ukuthembana, kunye nemida yobungqina

Esi siqwenga savela kuqala Idiplomat yeSayensi.

Ulwazi lwesayensi luya lusetyenziswa ngakumbi kulawulo ngexesha loxinzelelo lwezopolitiko kunye nokuqhekeka kwamaziko. Kule ngxoxo ka IPodcast yeDiplomat yeSayensi, Sir Peter GluckmanUMongameli weBhunga leSayensi yeHlabathi kunye nomcebisi oyintloko wesayensi kwinkulumbuso yaseNew Zealand, ucamngca ngoko isayensi enokukwenza noko ingenakukwenza ngaphakathi kwiinkqubo zezopolitiko.

Esebenzisa amava akhe kurhulumente nakwinzululwazi, uGluckman uthi isayensi ayenzi migaqo-nkqubo; inika ulwazi ngokhetho oluthi ekugqibeleni lubunjwe kukuthembana, izikhuthazo, kunye nemilinganiselo ekhuphisanayo. Uxoxa ngendima yorhwebo phakathi kweenkcubeko zesayensi nezopolitiko, ukubaluleka kokuvuma ukungaqiniseki, kunye nesizathu sokuba ukuthobeka kunye nokungafihlisi izinto zibalulekile kwingcebiso esebenzayo.

Le ngxoxo ikwahlola uxinzelelo kwinkxaso-mali yophando lukarhulumente, ukutshintshela kwesayensi yokufumanisa izinto ezintsha kwicandelo labucala, ubuthathaka bangaphakathi kwinkqubo yesayensi, imigaqo yokuziphatha kunye neempawu ezixhasa isayensi yehlabathi, kunye nendima ephikiswana ngayo yokungachaneki kunye nokungabi nalwazi oluchanekileyo ekubumbeni ukuthembana koluntu.

Izihloko ezigutyungelweyo:

• Iingcebiso zesayensi xa kuthelekiswa nokwenza izigqibo kwezopolitiko
• Ubudlelwane phakathi kweenkcubeko zesayensi kunye nemigaqo-nkqubo
• Ukungaqiniseki, ukuthembana, kunye nemida yobungqina
• Iingcinezelo zokuxhasa uphando kunye neenkqubo zokukhuthaza
• Izithintelo zokuziphatha kwishishini lezenzululwazi lehlabathi
• Unxibelelwano, ukwahlukana, kunye nolwazi olungeyonyani

Irekhodwe ngoJanuwari 27, 2026.

Iququzelelwa nguAmna Habiba, uBupe Chikumbi kunye noJohn Heilprin.

yombhalo

UAmna Habiba: Kulungile, ndiza kuqala. Igunya lesayensi libizwa rhoqo kulawulo kwaye ngexesha apho uxinzelelo lwezopolitiko luphezulu kwaye amaziko ehlabathi ephantsi koxinzelelo olukhulu. Wamkelekile kwiSayensi Diplomat. Ndingumamkeli wakho, Amna, kwaye namhlanje undwendwe lwethu lukhona. Sir Peter Gluckman, umongameli weBhunga leSayensi yeHlabathi. Ndiza kuyidlulisela kuwe, John.

UJohn Heilprin: Kaloku, ukwangumcebisi weSayensi oyiNtloko kwiNkulumbuso yaseNew Zealand ukususela ngo-2009 ukuya ku-2018, kwaye ube liLungu eliyiNtloko kunye noSihlalo wokuqala we-International Network for Government Science Advice, kwaye ngoku usebenza njengoMlawuli weZiko leeNkcukacha zekamva kwiYunivesithi yaseAuckland. Kwaye unguMbutho weRoyal Society of London. Fellow kunye nogqirha wezifo zabantwana oqeqeshiweyo. Ndifuna nje ukuthi kube mnandi kakhulu ukudibana nawe kwiingqungquthela zesayensi eGeneva. Kwaye ndifuna nje ukuthi sonwabile ukuba nawe kule ncoko njengoko sivula uthotho lwethu olutsha lweepodcast. Ngoko ke sibuyela kuwe, Amna.

UAmna Habiba: Enkosi, John. Ngoko ke, ndiza kuqala ngombuzo wethu wokuqala. Ngaba uzijonga njengosopolitiki wesayensi? Ukuba kunjalo, uchaza njani loo nto, ekubeni umsebenzi wakho ubandakanya umsebenzi onzulu wesayensi kunye namaphepha angaphezu kwama-700 apapashwe kwaye asasazeke ngaphakathi kweendawo zomgaqo-nkqubo?

Sir Peter Gluckman: Kaloku, ndizibona ndingumdibanisi wesayensi, kwaye ndibe ngumdibanisi wesayensi ngeendlela ezimbini. Xa ndandinguMcebisi oyiNtloko weSayensi kwiNkulumbuso yaseNew Zealand, ndandikwaqeshwe njengeNxusa leSayensi kwiSebe leMicimbi yezeNgaphandle kunye noRhwebo eNew Zealand, apho ndandinendima esebenzayo egameni likaRhulumente waseNew Zealand njenge-diplomat yesayensi. Ndikwangumdibanisi wesayensi kuba indima yeBhunga leSayensi yeHlabathi imalunga nento esiyibiza ngokuba yi-Track-Two science diplomacy. Leyo yi-science diplomacy eqhutywa yimibutho engekho phantsi korhulumente ngeenjongo ezahlukeneyo. Ngoko ke, ndicinga ukuba uninzi lweminyaka yam engama-20 edlulileyo ngandlela thile ibe yi-science diplomat ngeendlela ezahlukeneyo.

UAmna Habiba: Enkosi kakhulu ngokutsho oko. Kwaye xa ucinga ngendlela u-2026 ohambe ngayo ukuza kuthi ga ngoku, xa ujonga unyaka ozayo, zeziphi ezinye zezinto eziphambili ezibekwe libhunga kwaye yintoni eqhuba ezo zinto ziphambili okwangoku?

Sir Peter Gluckman:Kaloku, asinakuyikhanyela imeko yezopolitiko. Sinemiba emininzi kwihlabathi liphela, ebanzi kakhulu kunokuba abantu becinga, ukususela kutshintsho lwemozulu kunye nokonakaliswa kwendalo, ukulahleka kwezinto eziphilayo, ukuya kwimiba yolwandle olunzulu, indawo yolwandle, indawo engaphandle enzulu, imiba yendawo engaphandle, imiba yendawo engaphakathi, i-intanethi kunye nazo zonke ezi zinto zivela kwi-intanethi yetekhnoloji ehlukeneyo enqumla imida. Asinakuyityeshela into yokuba ezi zinto zidibene ngokusondeleyo - unxibelelwano phakathi kwesayensi, ubuchwepheshe, uqoqosho, ukhuseleko, kunye namandla ezopolitiko zonke zidibene. Ewe, impembelelo yemiba yezopolitiko ijongene neplanethi ngeendlela ezininzi. Kodwa oko akuthethi ukuba asinakukwazi ukwenza inkqubela phambili. Senze inkqubela phambili ngamaxesha angaphambili oxinzelelo. Kufuneka ujonge emva kwiMfazwe ebandayo yeminyaka yoo-1960 kunye noo-70 ukuze ubone indlela isayensi eyawela ngayo imida phakathi kweSoviet Union kunye ne-United States ngeendlela ezakhayo kakhulu: iMontreal Protocol, iVillach Conference, eyakhokelela ekugqibeleni ekusekweni kwe-IPCC, ukusekwa kwe-IIASA. Zininzi izinto ezenzekayo apho isayensi yayixhasa ubudiplomasi, kwaye ubudiplomasi nesayensi zazisebenza kunye. Kwaye oko kunokwenzeka ngoku. Kodwa kukho iseti yesibini yemiba enzima ngakumbi, engekuko ukuthemba isayensi, kuba akukho bungqina buncinci bokuba ukuthemba isayensi kuye kwehla, kodwa ukuthemba ukusetyenziswa kwesayensi kujongene nokwahlukana, ukuthandwa kwabantu, njalo njalo, kwaye oko kudala imingeni yokwenyani. Abezopolitiko bebesoloko bekhetha isayensi abafuna ukuyisebenzisa, loo nto ayitshintshanga. Kodwa iye yaba qatha ngakumbi kwaye igqithisile, kwaye kwezinye iimeko, isayensi iye yatyhalela ecaleni. Siyabona ngokwenene ukuba icandelo leengcebiso zesayensi mhlawumbi alikho ngqiqweni njengoko lalinjalo kwixesha langaphambi kwe-COVID. Ngoko ke, kukho uluhlu lwemiba apha eyinyani kakhulu. Uluntu lwesayensi kufuneka lusebenzisane ngokusondeleyo nabenzi bomgaqo-nkqubo kunye nee-NGOs ezahlukeneyo kunye nenkqubo yamazwe ngamazwe ukuze kuphunyezwe iingenelo eziza nesayensi ekwenzeni izigqibo nokuba zezomgaqo-nkqubo okanye zezopolitiko. Kunzima kwiimeko ezahlukeneyo. Sinehlabathi eliqhekekileyo kakhulu. Inzondelelo yehlabathi elihlangeneyo, eyalandela ukuwa koDonga lwaseBerlin, yaphela. Yayisele iphela ngaphambi kwe-COVID, kodwa iphele ngokukhawuleza emva kwe-COVID ngezizathu ezahlukeneyo, zonke ezingezizo ezinxulumene nelizwe elithile. Inkqubo yamazwe ngamazwe ifuna ukuqina, kodwa kufuneka sijongane nobuthathaka bayo bokwenyani. Ngoko ke, kukho okuninzi okufuneka kwenziwe apha. Kwaye isayensi, zombini isayensi yendalo kunye nesayensi yezentlalo, zibaluleke kakhulu ukuba ihlabathi liza kungena kwindlela ehlangabezana neemfuno zazo zonke iindawo zezopolitiko, oko kukuthi ukuphucula impilo-ntle kunye nemeko yabantu kuwo onke amazwe, nokuba kukwindawo enye yezobuchwepheshe okanye kwenye indawo yezopolitiko kwiGlobal North okanye kwiGlobal South. Kunzima, mhlawumbi kunzima ngaphezu kokuba kwakunjalo, kodwa ngamanye amaxesha ukungqubana okuye kwavela kwihlabathi eliqhekekileyo kunyanzela abantu ukuba bajonge ukuba zeziphi iingxaki zokwenyani kunye nezinto zokwenyani ezifuna ukukhuselwa. Kwaye isayensi yenye yezo zinto.

UAmna Habiba: Enkosi ngokwabelana ngaloo nto. Ukhankanye ukuba zininzi izinto ekufuneka zenziwe kwaye isayensi ngokuqinisekileyo yenye yezona zinto zibalulekileyo kuloo nto. Mhlawumbi injani into yokuba ubhunga yonke imihla njengenxalenye yendima yakho njengomongameli?

Sir Peter Gluckman:Kaloku, ibhunga liyintlangano encinci xa lithelekiswa nezinye. Ndingathanda ukuba ibinohlahlo-lwabiwo mali olukhulu ukuze ikwazi ukwenza okungakumbi. Kodwa ixhomekeke kumalungu, amalungu ethu. Kukho imibutho emalunga nama-270, uninzi lwezikolo zesayensi zehlabathi, uninzi lwemibutho yesayensi yehlabathi – kukho imingxuma ofuna ukuyizalisa – emele ilizwe ngalinye emhlabeni. Enyanisweni iphelele ngakumbi, ukuba uyayihlalutya, kuneZizwe eziManyeneyo, kwiindawo ezizaziyo nezisebenzisana nazo. Kodwa kwelinye icala, sizama ukunceda amalungu ethu ukuba enze izinto ngaphakathi kwezifundo zawo okanye kumazwe angamalungu awo. Kodwa kwakhona, kufuneka sisebenzisane ngokusondeleyo neZizwe eziManyeneyo. Sinabantu abaya eNew York. Sineofisi eNew York; kufuneka sisebenze eGeneva. Sisebenzisana neearhente ezininzi ze-UN. Sisondelelene kakhulu neBhodi yeeNgcebiso zeSayensi kaNobhala Jikelele ekunikezeni ukufikelela kuzo kuluntu lwezenzululwazi lwehlabathi. Sisebenzisana ngokusondeleyo neearhente ezininzi ze-UN. Kwezinye iimeko, sibambisene nabo. Ngoko ke, sisebenzisana neWorld Meteorological Organisation kwiindawo ezininzi ezinxulumene nemozulu kunye nokusingqongileyo. Sisebenzisana neKhomishini yoLawulo lweeLwandlekazi eziPhakathi kwezinye iindawo. Sibe nobudlelwane obusondeleyo obude neNkqubo yezeNdalo yeZizwe eziManyeneyo, iNkqubo yoPhuhliso lweZizwe eziManyeneyo kwiindawo ezahlukeneyo. Sine-MOU ne-FAO kunye ne-WHO, eziguquka zibe ziinkalo zobuchwephesha ezivelisa ngokwenene, apho sinokubonelela ngolwazi kunye neembono ezivela kuluntu olusebenzayo lwezenzululwazi ukuze zihambisane noko kuvela kwimibutho yoorhulumente. SinoMlawuli-Jikelele omtsha kwi-UNESCO kwaye sifuna ubudlelwane obuqinileyo ngakumbi kunokuba bekunjalo kwiminyaka yakutshanje, njalo njalo. Kukho izinto ezininzi ekufuneka zenziwe liqela elincinci. Kukho abantu abangama-22 kuphela eofisini eParis, size ke sibe neendawo ezincinci, esizibiza ngokuba ziindawo ezijolise kuzo zengingqi eLatin America, eAfrika – iyakhiwa kwakhona okwangoku. Kwingingqi yeAsia-Pacific, sineofisi eCanberra, eOstreliya, kodwa sikwafikelele kwisivumelwano neUzbekistan seAsia Ephakathi, kunye norhulumente waseOman seofisi eseMbindi Mpuma, eseMuscat, eOman. Sikwanobudlelwane obusondeleyo neTshayina, enentlangano ejongene neemfuno zethu eTshayina. Kwaye siza kuba seIndiya kwiiveki ezimbalwa ezizayo ukuze sithethe ngento efanayo apho, kumazwe amabini anabemi abaninzi emhlabeni. Kukho iqela elisebenzayo eYurophu. Ngoko ke, yintlangano esebenzayo kakhulu, kodwa le ntlangano ibisoloko itshintsha. Lo mbutho waqala ukubonakala ngaphakathi, mhlawumbi kwixesha lika-2010 ukuya ku-2016, xa kwathathwa isigqibo esikhulu sokuba imibutho emibini eyandulelayo, i-ISC, eyasekwa ngo-2018 kuphela, umbutho owawujonga isayensi yendalo, owawubizwa ngokuba yi-ICSU, kunye neBhunga leSayensi yeNtlalo yeHlabathi, elasekwa emva kweMfazwe Yehlabathi yesiBini, ziya kudibana. Kwaye ukuhlanganiswa kwesayensi yendalo nezentlalo kwi-ISC kube luncedo kakhulu kwaye kube nemveliso enkulu. Kuba umda phakathi kwesayensi yendalo kunye nesayensi yezentlalo ungaphezulu kakhulu kunokuba sicinga. Kwaye ukuba ucinga nje ngayo nayiphi na inkqubela phambili yezobuchwepheshe, ayiqhubeki ngaphandle kokucinga ngesayensi yezentlalo yezobuchwepheshe ngaxeshanye. Ngoko ke, kwiintsuku zokuqala phakathi kowama-2018 nowama-2021, sadlula kwixesha lokudibana nje kuphela kunye nazo zonke iinguqu zombutho ezakhayo. Kodwa ngoku sibonakala ngathi singaphandle kakhulu. Njengoko nditshilo, simise iofisi eNew York. Siza kubeka iofisi eGeneva. Sakhe zonke ezi ntsebenziswano neearhente ze-UN. Sifunwa yiofisi kaNobhala-Jikelele ngalo lonke ixesha ukuze sinike izimvo. Singumbutho owahlukileyo kakhulu ngoku. Kwaye silungile ukwenza indima yethu ephambili: eyi-Track-Two science diplomacy, edibanisa isayensi kunye ngaphaya kwemida yejografi ukuze kuhlangatyezwane nomdla weplanethi, kunye nawo onke amazwe asemhlabeni. Kwaye sikulungele kakuhle, ndicinga, kwiminyaka embalwa ezayo ukwenza loo nto.

Bupe Chikumbi: Enkosi kakhulu, Mnumzana Peter. Kwaye ukuze nje sihlale kule ndawo uyithethileyo, imida yokwenziwa phakathi kwezesayensi yendalo kunye nesayensi yezentlalo, ndifuna okwangoku sitshintshele incoko siye kwimida yeengcebiso zesayensi. Siyazi ukuba impumelelo yesayensi, njengoko sele utshilo ngokufanelekileyo, inyanzela ngakumbi iinkokheli zezopolitiko ukuba zenze izigqibo phantsi kwekamva elingaqinisekanga. Kwaye kudla ngokuba ngaphambi kokuba iziphumo zentlalo, zokuziphatha, kunye nezopolitiko ziqondwe ngokupheleleyo. Wenze umsebenzi omkhulu kwisayensi yokulindela, apho ukulawula kuthetha ukwenza ngaphambi kokuqiniseka. Umzekelo, ngexesha lakho njengoMlawuli kwiZiko leKoi Tū leeFutures ezinolwazi. Kwaye nakwindima yakho yangaphambili njengoMcebisi oyiNtloko weSayensi kwiNkulumbuso yaseNew Zealand. Ngoko ke, umbuzo wam ngoku kukuba yintoni eyayinzima kakhulu kwizazinzulu ukuyamkela malunga nendlela amandla ezopolitiko asebenzisa ngayo ingcebiso zesayensi, ngakumbi ngaloo maxesha apho, uyazi, xa ubungqina babunamandla, ubungqina besayensi babunamandla, kodwa ubungakanani bobulungisa bomntu kunye nokuthembana kwakusaphelele. Yintoni eyayinzima kakhulu kwizazinzulu ukuyamkela kuloo ntsebenziswano?

Sir Peter Gluckman:Ewe, ndicinga ukuba uphendule umbuzo wakho, ngeendlela ezithile, ngengqiqo yokuba isayensi ayize yenze umgaqo-nkqubo, okanye ngaphandle kweemeko ezingaqhelekanga. Isayensi inika ulwazi ngemigaqo-nkqubo, kwaye isayensi ayinakukwazi ukuphendula yonke imibuzo. Kukho imibuzo ekufuneka abenzi bomgaqo-nkqubo bayiphendule kwindlela abenza ngayo izigqibo, isayensi engenakuyiphendula. Ukuba sithetha ngokuphandle, yintoni ukwenza umgaqo-nkqubo? Ukwenza umgaqo-nkqubo kukukhetha phakathi kweendlela ezahlukeneyo, kuquka nokukhetha ukungenzi nto, nto leyo echaphazela abachaphazelekayo abahlukeneyo ngeendlela ezahlukeneyo. Ewe, isayensi inika, kwiimeko ezininzi, ulwazi olusisiseko malunga nezigqibo ezenziwayo, kodwa ke kufuneka ucinge ngokuba zibiza malini, yintoni impembelelo, yintoni uluvo loluntu, yintoni imiba yokuziphatha neyentlalo, zeziphi izinto eziqwalaselwayo zezopolitiko. Konke oko kungena kwizigqibo ezithathwayo. Kwaye sibonile ukuba kwi-COVID, amanye amazwe aye kwimithetho enyanzelekileyo yokuvalelwa ngaphandle, amanye ayengayenzi loo nto, esebenzisa isayensi efanayo, kodwa eza esebenzisa izimo zengqondo ezahlukeneyo nangasiphi na isizathu, nokuba zezopolitiko okanye zilinganisa ibhalansi yezi ndlela zahlukeneyo. Enye yezinto malunga neengcebiso zesayensi: xa oorhulumente befuna, isayensi ayigqibeki. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba izazinzulu zihlala zicinga ukuba, kuba zisazi ukuba u-A ubangela u-B, ngoko ke oorhulumente kufuneka benze okuthile. Akunjalo. A, isayensi ayipheleli, asilunganga kangako, njengezazinzulu, sihlala sivuma ukungaqiniseki koko sikwaziyo. Kwaye bendisoloko ndivakalelwa kukuba kufuneka sahlule ishishini lokudibanisa ubungqina, elishwankathela oko sikwaziyo kwiincwadi zesayensi, kwishishini le-science brokerage, elishishini lokuxelela urhulumente: oku sikwaziyo, kunye nezilumkiso malunga nokungaqiniseki kwayo; oku kukungayazi, okubaluleke ngokulinganayo. Kwiimeko ezininzi, asizazi zonke izinto. Zithini izinto ezingaqhelekanga ezijikeleze ezo nkalo zimbini zezinto esizaziyo nesingazaziyo? Yintoni umahluko phakathi kwezigqibo ezigqitywa luluntu lwesayensi kunye nobungqina obubonisayo, kunye nesigqibo abafikelela kuso? Ukuba uyayazi imisebenzi kaHeather Douglas, ubuya kwazi ukuba phantse kukho umsantsa phakathi koko isayensi ikwaziyo noko igqiba kuko. Kwaye bungakanani umgangatho wobungqina obukhoyo? Ngaba kukho ubungqina obaneleyo bokuba nenkampani eqinileyo – konke oko kuyinxalenye ye-brokerage elungileyo? Kodwa ekugqibeleni, onokukwenza kukuxelela urhulumente, ngaphandle kwimeko yengxaki, mhlawumbi, ezi zezona ndlela ziphambili, ezi ziziphumo zokhetho ngalunye ngokwembono yesayensi, kwaye ezi ziziphumo esinokuzibona ngokwembono engeyoyesayensi. Kodwa kungenxa yakho, kungekhona kososayensi, ukwenza ezo zigwebo kwezo nkalo zimbi. Ngoku ndicinga ukuba yinto izazinzulu ezininzi ezikufumanisa kunzima ukuyikholelwa, ukuba inkcubeko yomgaqo-nkqubo kunye nenkcubeko yesayensi zahlukile kakhulu. Kwaye ndihlala ndisithi, yinto encinci – kufuneka ube nabantu abaqonda uluntu olujongene nemigaqo-nkqubo kwaye baqonde uluntu lwesayensi. Kwaye kufuneka benze ngathi ungumntu othetha isiSwahili, uthetha nomntu othetha isiJamani kwaye uqonda ulwimi lomzimba, inkcubeko, yonke imiba yembali neminye ebandakanyekayo xa unabantu ababini beenkcubeko ezahlukeneyo abazama ukufumana isisombululo kwinto ethile. Kunjalo nakwisayensi. Isayensi ngokwayo ayisiyondlela eqhelekileyo yokucinga; yindlela engaqondakaliyo yokucinga kumntu oqhelekileyo. Ukwenziwa kwemigaqo-nkqubo kukwayindlela eyahlukileyo yokucinga kwaye kuyinto engaqondakaliyo kakhulu kwisazinzulu. Ngoko ke, uneenkqubo ezimbini ezingabonakaliyo ekufuneka zinxibelelane. Ngoko ke, ndikholelwa kakhulu, kwaye akunamsebenzi ukuba imvelaphi yaloo mntu injani na, kufuneka baqonde zombini ezo nkcubeko kwaye baqeqeshwe ukunxibelelana ngeendlela ezithembekileyo kwisayensi, kodwa baqonde imida yesayensi kunye nendlela umenzi womgaqo-nkqubo ekufuneka afake ngayo izinto zakhe zokuyiqwalasela. Ngokufanayo kuya ngenye indlela. Inani lezihlandlo apho inkulumbuso okanye usopolitiki ebendibuza umbuzo ndize ndithi, 'Linda, awuwuphendulanga kakuhle lo mbuzo.' Kufuneka ufikelele kumbuzo osisiseko ukuba uza kufumana impendulo eza kuba luncedo kuwe kwiimeko zakho zezopolitiko okanye zemigaqo-nkqubo. Ngoko ke, yinto eyenzeka macala omabini, ayisiyonto eyenzeka macala omabini, kodwa iyinkimbinkimbi kakhulu. Kwaye ikhokelela abantu abathembekileyo ngokwenene phakathi, abanokukholeleka ukuba babeke ecaleni ucalucalulo lwabo, nto leyo enye yezizathu endandisoloko ndiziphepha, xa ndandinguMcebisi wezeSayensi, ndithetha ngesayensi yam. Bendisoloko ndicela abanye abantu ukuba bathethe ngeendawo endiziva ndingumntu ochwephesha kuzo. Kuba loo nto ayingomsebenzi womcebisi wesayensi ukutyhala umqadi wakhe. Ndicinga ukuba imiyalezo efanayo iyasebenza xa sibuyela umva nje kwimibuzo yokuba isayensi isebenza njani nabaphathi bezopolitiko. Iingcali zezopolitiko zineminye imiba eyahlukileyo kwaneyomntu oqhelekileyo ophethe imigaqo-nkqubo. Ngenxa yokuba sithetha kwinqanaba lesizwe, indima yabameli kukuqhubela phambili iimfuno zelizwe labo, nokuba kukwingxoxo yamazwe amabini okanye yamazwe ngamazwe. Ngoko ke, kuya kufuneka uvumele oko kunye nengxoxo ngesayensi. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba eyona ngxaki inkulu kwi-diplomacy yesayensi kukufumana i-diplomacy okanye ilizwe, kuba kusenokwenzeka ukuba ayingo-diplomacy, isenokuba yi-political, ukuba iqonde ukuba kusemdleni wayo wesizwe ukusebenza kwimiba yehlabathi. Ukuba abakuboni oko ngokwembono yesizwe, abayi kuxhasa imiba, ngokubanzi, kwihlabathi liphela. Kwaye okona kunzima kakhulu, ndicinga, kweli shishini lesayensi yokudibanisa, ndibuya nje umbuzo, ngulo mbuzo wokuba ubenza njani oorhulumente babone ukuba imiba yehlabathi ngokubanzi ibaluleke kakhulu kwilizwe, nokuba ulilizwe elikhulu okanye ilizwe elincinci, njengeMalawi okanye iNew Zealand.

Bupe Chikumbi: Kulungile, ukuze nje, ngenxa yabaphulaphuli bethu, kulungile, ukuqukumbela ngayo yonke into oyithethileyo, ucinga ukuba umda ungowezopolitiko? Okanye yindlela isayensi eyiyo? Ngaba yindlela isayensi edluliselwa ngayo? Uyazi, kwimizekelo yobhubhane kwaye ngoku, kwenzeka ntoni? Njengokuba, ungacacisa ngakumbi kubaphulaphuli bethu?

Sir Peter Gluckman: Ndicinga ukuba ngumbuzo ongenakuphikiswa. Ngokombono wam, apho ingcebiso yesayensi isebenze kakuhle, ifuna ubuntu bosopolitiki ukuba nengqondo evulekileyo, ubuntu babaphathi bezopolitiko ukuba nengqondo evulekileyo. Rhoqo, nabo bangumqobo. Kodwa ngokufanayo ifuna ubuntu bosonzululwazi ukuba bangazivezi i-ajenda yabo, ubuntu babo, ucalucalulo lwabo kuyo. Ngoko ke, ndibone ingcebiso yesayensi, kwaye ndivela kwinkqubo yabacebisi abaziintloko zesayensi, endaweni yokuvela kwiinkqubo ezihlangeneyo, apho abacebisi besayensi kunye nabezopolitiko bebenobudlelwane obuthembekileyo kakhulu, kwaye busebenze kakuhle kakhulu. Kodwa ndibone iimeko apho ikhemistri ingazange ibe namandla, kwaye ingasebenzi kakuhle. Kwaye oko kunokuba kumacala omabini onxibelelwano. Ngoko ke, kunzima ukukuchaza ngokubanzi, kodwa andicingi ukuba... Siyazi ukuba ayinguye wonke usosayensi owenza unxibelelwano oluhle. Kwaye andicingi ukuba wonke usosayensi wenza umthengisi olungileyo okanye umntu olungileyo wezopolitiko osebenzisana nabezopolitiko. Ngokufanayo, ndicinga ukuba kukho abezopolitiko abanokuzithemba ukumamela ingcebiso abasenokungakhululeki ngayo. Nditsho ukuthi, enye yezona zinto zinzima kumcebisi wesayensi kukuba xa ujongene nokukhetha ngokwengqondo okanye ngokwezopolitiko kosopolitiki, kwaye usafuna ukuzama ukudlulisela umyalezo, nangona usazi ukuba basenokungafuni ukuwuva. Kwaye loo nto yingxoxo enzima kakhulu, kwaye ixhomekeke kwizakhono zokunxibelelana kwabantu ababini kwelo gumbi, okanye kwikomiti, ukuba lulwakhiwo olusekwe kwikomiti. Izinto eziphumelelayo kulula ukuzichaza. Zininzi izizathu zokuba inokungaphumeleli, kwaye kwihlabathi elinokwahlukana ngakumbi kunokwenzeka ukuba ingaphumeleli. Ndicinga ukuba iimeko ezingxamisekileyo zihlala zivelisa ezona ngcebiso zibalaseleyo kwezesayensi, kodwa zinokuvelisa nezona ngcebiso zimbi kwezesayensi. Njengoko sibonile kwi-COVID, bekukho amazwe amahle kakhulu apho ingcebiso yesayensi yayiphuhliswe kakuhle kakhulu. Kwamanye amazwe, sibone ukhuphiswano lokufikelela kumandla, ukhuphiswano lwezazinzulu lwaqala ukusebenza, kwaye lwaba yingxaki. Kwaye siyazi ukuba, ngokuhamba kwexesha, ulwazi ngentsholongwane lwatshintsha. Kwaye siyazi ukuba izinto ezahlukeneyo zabandakanyeka kwizigqibo zokunxiba iimaski, ukunganxibi iimaski, umgama wentlalo, ukuvalelwa ekhaya, kungekhona ukuvalelwa ekhaya. Ezi yayizizigqibo ezinzima, kwaye zazifuna ugwebo ngabo bonke abadlali ababandakanyekayo, yiyo loo nto wabona iziphumo ezahlukeneyo. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba apho kwenze ngcono khona kulapho - kwaye i-ISC yabhala ingxelo enkulu ye-WHO malunga neengcebiso zesayensi kunye nezifundo zomgaqo-nkqubo ezivela kubhubhane. Kwaye ndisacinga ukuba loo ngxelo, ezo ngxelo zimbini ze-ISC kwiwebhusayithi ye-ISC, ezenziwe njengomsebenzi wehlabathi kwiminyaka emibini yezifundo ezivela kwi-COVID, zime uvavanyo lwexesha lokucinga ngomngcipheko, uvavanyo lomngcipheko, ukujongana nocalucalulo lwengqondo, oluye lwabakho wonke umntu, kunye nokujongana nendlela ingcebiso yesayensi esebenza ngayo ngaphambi nangexesha likaxakeka. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba zihlala, ndicinga, iingxelo ezisemgangathweni wegolide.

UAmna Habiba: Enkosi ngokwabelana ngaloo nto. Uchaze okuninzi malunga nendlela imeko-bume yesayensi kunye nemeko-bume yemigaqo-nkqubo eyahluke ngayo kunye nokuba nabo bathengiselana phakathi. Kodwa xa kufikwa kumba wokungaqiniseki, sihlala sifumana uphando lwesayensi kunye neengcebiso ezivela kwizazinzulu, kodwa kunzima ukuyitolika ngokuqiniseka ngokupheleleyo ukuba iza kusebenza okanye ayizukusebenza. Xa ukwimeko enjalo, yintoni enokunceda ingcebiso yesayensi ukuba ibe luncedo endaweni yokuba ichaneke nje?

Sir Peter Gluckman:Ewe, ayinakuchaneka. Nditsho ukuthi, ndicinga ukuba yiloo nto ibalulekileyo. Ndicinga ukuba ingcebiso yesayensi ingcono xa uvuma ukuba kukho izinto ezingaqinisekanga. Inokuthenjwa ngakumbi. Ukuba sinyanisekile ngento yokuba asazi ngokuchanekileyo – masithethe ngento efana notshintsho lwemozulu. Asazi ukuba ihlabathi liza kuba njani ngo-2050. Sineentlobo ngeentlobo zeemodeli ezahlukeneyo zokuba kuya kuba shushu kangakanani ukususela ngoku ukuya kuthi ga ngelo xesha, kuxhomekeke kwindlela esisabela ngayo kuyo. Vuma ukuba kukho ukungaqiniseki kwiimodeli. Akukho nto imbi ngokwenza loo nto. Kuyenza ithembeke ngakumbi. Ndicinga ukuba ulwaphulo-mthetho olubi kakhulu esinokulwenza phantse kwiingcebiso zesayensi kukubanga isiqiniseko esingekhoyo. Ndicinga ukuba abezopolitiko – ndicinga ukuba izazinzulu zicinga ukuba abezopolitiko abanakukwazi ukumelana nokungaqiniseki. Bajongana nokungaqiniseki rhoqo kakhulu kunokuba sisazi. Bayazi ukuba uninzi lwezigqibo zabo zezopolitiko ziya kuba nemiphumo abasenokuba bacinga ngayo okanye abangazange bayicinge. Bajongana nokungaqiniseki ngalo lonke ixesha, ubuncinane kwilizwe lentando yesininzi, bejongene nonyulo. Ngoko ke ndicinga ukuba le yintsomi yokuba kufuneka sichaneke kwaye sichaneke, xa singenakukwazi, kuba sicela ingcebiso yesayensi, ngesiqhelo xa isayensi ingaqinisekanga, nokuba yisayensi yendalo malunga nobhubhane okanye isayensi yentlalo ejikeleze, andazi, ukujongana nempilo yengqondo yolutsha xa sijongene nayo - ngaba kufuneka sivale imidiya yoluntu okanye singayivali imidiya yoluntu yabantwana abangaphantsi kweminyaka eli-16. Nditsho ukuthi, kukho ukungaqiniseki okuninzi, njengoko ubona kwintetho, malunga nokuba kuza kwenzeka ntoni kubantu abaselula, indlela iinkampani ezinkulu eziza kusabela ngayo, njl. njl. Oku akuyonto inzima, kodwa akuthethi ukuba asinakunika ingcebiso koorhulumente malunga nento esiyaziyo ukuba yenzeka kwimpilo yengqondo yolutsha kwixesha leendaba zoluntu, apho izinto ziya kulunga ukuba singayinciphisa. Enye yezinto ezisenokungasebenzi kakuhle ngabantwana abanengxaki, kuba bebodwa, njalo njalo, njalo njalo. Sisenako ukunika abezopolitiko iingcebiso eziluncedo ukuze bakwazi ukuziqwalasela nokwenza izigqibo. Ewe, baza kucela kuthi izigqibo zabo. Kodwa bendisoloko ndisithi kwinkulumbuso, ezi zezona ndlela ziphambili. Ukuba ebendijonga athi, 'Ucinga ukuba ndifanele ndenze ntoni?', bendingathi, 'Ewe, ndineembono ezahlukeneyo.' Ezi zizinto endizikhethayo. Andinakukuphendula loo mbono, kodwa ucalucalulo lwam lwenza oku kulandelayo.' Thetha inyaniso. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba ukunyaniseka kukhokelela ekuthembekeni. Kwaye ekugqibeleni, eyona nto iphambili kwingcebiso yesayensi kukuthembana phakathi koluntu lwesayensi kunye noluntu lwezopolitiko. Ngoko ke, abarhwebi abaphakathi kufuneka bathembeke kangangoko banako. Oko akuthethi ukuba siza kulungisa izinto ngalo lonke ixesha. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba ukuba sijonge ekuthembeni - kwaye okunxulumene nokuthemba ligama elithi ukuthobeka. Kwaye uyazi, awunakuya kwinkulumbuso okanye kumphathiswa okanye nakwigosa eliphezulu uthi, 'Kufuneka wenze oku kulandelayo.' Ayisebenzi ngaloo ndlela. Okwesibini xa usenza loo nto, ulahlekelwe kukuthembeka kwakho, kuba awunayo – isazinzulu asinazo zonke iinkalo zengxaki anayo umenzi-nkqubo. Kwakhona, sikubonile oko kumazwe amaninzi, kusenzeka phambili malunga ne-COVID. Kwaye sesinye sezizathu zokuba sibe nale mpendulo kwiingcebiso zesayensi nesayensi. Kwaye ukuthemba ukusetyenziswa kwesayensi kulandele iingxaki ze-COVID, kwezinye iimeko. Ndicinga ukuba uluntu lwesayensi kufuneka lufunde okuninzi kwi-COVID - njengokuba uluntu olunemigaqo-nkqubo kufuneka lufunde okuninzi kumzekelo we-COVID, uluntu olunemibutho emininzi ngokuqinisekileyo kufuneka lufunde okuninzi kumzekelo we-COVID. Uluntu lwesayensi nalo kufuneka lufunde.

UJohn Heilprin: Uyazi, ngaphambi kokuba sifikelele kwingcebiso yesayensi okanye ukuqonda okanye ukwamkelwa ngoorhulumente okanye amaziko, ewe siyaludinga uphando. Ngoko ke, ndiyazibuza, uyazi, kuwo onke amazwe, sibona uxinzelelo olukhulu kwinkxaso-mali yophando lukarhulumente. Ngoko ke, ngokwembono yebhunga, oko kwenza ntoni kwiintlobo zolwazi lwesayensi oluyenza ibe yingxoxo yomgaqo-nkqubo?

Sir Peter Gluckman:Ewe, ngumbuzo onzima kakhulu lowo, John, ngeendlela ezininzi. Okokuqala, kwenzeka ntoni kwihlabathi laseNtshona, kwaye akufani kuzo zonke iindawo zehlabathi, njengoko usazi – iTshayina iyaqhubeka nokutyala imali eninzi kwisayensi – sibona umkhwa wophando oluya phambili, ngakumbi olujoliswe ekuphuhliseni izinto ezintsha kwinto ethathwa njengendlela ethe tye, kodwa bekufanele ukuba sazi ixesha elide, ukuba ayithe tye. Asikuko indlela uVannevar Bush awayichaza ngayo okokuqala. Ayilonto icwangcisiweyo, kodwa siyayifuna into ofuna ukuyibiza, uphando lwezinto ezifunyenweyo, uphando oluphezulu, uphando olusisiseko, naluphi na ulwimi abantu abafuna ukulusebenzisa kuphando oluphezulu. Siyayidinga loo nto, kwaye kufuneka siqhubeke siyenza loo nto. Kwaye kufuneka sikhusele oko. Kwaye ndixhalabile ngakumbi malunga nendlela ekhuselwe ngayo loo nto kumazwe ebesoloko ekhokela kuloo ndawo. Nakwiindawo ezifana nesayensi yokusingqongileyo, isayensi yezinto eziphilayo, njalo njalo. Enye into esiyityeshelayo kukutshintsha okukhulu kwesayensi yokufumanisa izinto ezintsha ukuya kwicandelo labucala. Kwaye thina, uyazi, ukuba ucinga ngento eyenzekayo kwi-bio yokwenziwa, i-biology, into eyenzekayo kwindawo yedijithali ye-quantum, uninzi lwesayensi yokufumanisa izinto, eli gama endilisebenzisa rhoqo, lwenzeka kwicandelo labucala kunangaphambili. Kwaye kukho izibalo ezithi kubekho utyalo-mali olukhulu kakhulu ekufumaneni izinto kwicandelo labucala. Kwaye loo nto ineentlobo ngeentlobo zeengozi kuyo. Ayibonakali kangako. Inefuthe kuqeqesho ngeendlela ezininzi. Inezicelo zobudlelwane beGlobal North, Global South, kunye neNorth-North, kunye neSouth-South, kunye neNorth-South ngeendlela ezahlukeneyo. Ngoko ke kukho inkxalabo yokwenene. KukwiNtshona ikakhulu apho sibona khona ukuncipha kwesayensi esisiseko, nto leyo enokubonisa izinto uluntu lwesayensi olungenatyala kuzo ngokupheleleyo. Kukho isayensi eninzi ekhululekileyo eye yaqhubeka, nto leyo engekuko ukuba ithatha imida yolwazi, okanye inyanzelise amandla ayo okuvelisa izinto ezintsha. Kwaye uyazi, ukuba ujonga nje inani lamaphepha esayensi angacatshulwayo, anceda kakhulu ukunika uluntu lwezemfundo izicatshulwa ezingaphezulu okanye iimpapasho ezingaphezulu kunomdlalo wokupapasha okanye wokutshabalalisa, ukukhula okukhulu kwenani lamaphepha esayensi, ukwanda kweejenali zesayensi, okubeka uxinzelelo kwinkqubo yokuphonononga oontanga ngaphaya kwamandla ayo okumelana nayo. Ukuveliswa kwamaphepha enziwe yi-AI, iijenali zezilwanyana ezizingelayo, njl. njl., njl. Uluntu lwezenzululwazi ngokwalo kufuneka lucinge ngento eyenzekayo apha. Nditsho ukuthi, anditsho ukuba ndifuna ukubona ukuncipha kotyalo-mali kwisayensi. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba kufuneka sisebenzisane noluntu olujongene nemigaqo-nkqubo yesayensi ukuqinisekisa ukuba utyalo-mali kwisayensi lusetyenziswa kakuhle. Kwaye oko kuquka isayensi ephucukileyo, equka uqeqesho, izizukulwana ezilandelayo zezazinzulu ezivela kwihlabathi liphela, njalo njalo, njalo njalo. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba kufuneka sizigxeke ngakumbi ngento exhaswa ngemali nesizathu, kuba ndicinga ukuba inyani nje yokuba – andazi iipesenti – kodwa ndicinga ukuba ubuncinane i-50% yazo zonke izinto ezipapashwayo, mhlawumbi eziphezulu kakhulu kunoko, azikhe zicatshulwe ngumntu. Kodwa ziyinxalenye yeshishini lezemfundo, ukuba uyayiqonda into endiyithethayo. Ndicinga ukuba sinayo – kwaye ewe, ndiyaqonda ukuba kutheni abafundi kufuneka bapapashe kwaye simele sincede – kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo, sifuna ukuba bapapashe ngezinto ezinentsingiselo nezixabisekileyo. Ngoko ke, ndicinga ukuba kukho into apha malunga nenkcubeko ngaphakathi kuluntu lwezenzululwazi, indlela abaxhasi abasebenza ngayo, indlela amaziko asebenza ngayo, ukugqitha i-h-index, okanye izinga lokucaphula, okanye naziphi na izinto ezichaphazelayo, ukugqitha oko kwindlela esijonga ngayo indlela esenza ngayo isayensi ibe nefuthe ngokwenene. Kuba ukuba isayensi ibinefuthe ngokwenene, bekungayi kubakho ngxaki koorhulumente abafuna ukufaka imali engaphezulu kuyo. Kwaye oko kungaba luphando oluvela phezulu nasezantsi. Nditsho ke, ngoko ke ndicinga ukuba, ewe, singabagxeka oorhulumente, kwaye ndingowokuqala ukugxeka urhulumente wam ngokungafaki mali yaneleyo kwisayensi, kwaye ndigxeka ngokucacileyo ngaloo nto. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba kufuneka sizijonge. Kuba ngendlela ehlekisayo, yiloo nto abezopolitiko bebeyithetha ngeendlela ezimbi, kodwa eneneni babuza lo mbuzo, 'Ngaba bayayifumana imali abayifake kwisayensi?' Kwaye ndicinga ukuba yiloo nto uluntu lwesayensi olufanele luzijonge ngayo. Ndicinga ukuba sidale, ukususela ngeminyaka yoo-1980, inkqubo yokukhuthaza ngaphakathi kwisayensi, engeyiyo esempilweni ngokupheleleyo, eyakhelwe kwizinga lokucaphula okanye i-bibliometrics. Kwaye kukhokelele kwimisebenzi emininzi enika abantu imisebenzi, ibafumanela isibonelelo, ibafumanela ukunyuselwa emsebenzini, njalo njalo, njalo njalo. Kwaye ishishini lokupapasha lakhiwe ngaloo nto, ngoko ke libe ngamashishini amabini adibana nempembelelo, amazinga okucatshulwa, njalo njalo. Ndicinga ukuba kufuneka sizijonge kwakhona size sithi, 'Ngaba siqeqesha abantu, akunjalo?' Ngaba sinika ulutsha imisebenzi efanelekileyo kwixesha elizayo? Ngaba indlela ezenziwa ngayo izifundo zePhD, ubuncinane kwiindawo ezininzi zehlabathi, yindlela efanelekileyo yokuvelisa izazinzulu ezifanelekileyo kwisizukulwana esitsha?’ Asinakuba nezazinzulu ezingayiqondiyo inkalo yedijithali. Sifuna izazinzulu ezininzi ngakumbi ukuba zenze uphando olusebenzisa iindlela ezahlukeneyo zokwenza uphando. Kukho izinto ezininzi kule nto, endinokuchitha iiyure ndizithetha ukuba ungandinika enye i-podcast okanye ezimbini endiza kuthetha ngazo. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba kufuneka sizijonge. Ndicinga ukuba ukuba sihlala apho silinde uluntu lwezopolitiko ukuba lusombulule iingxaki zethu, asiyi kuya ndawo. Ndicinga ukuba kufuneka siqale sijonge indlela esithetha ngayo oko kufuneka sikwenze ngaphakathi kuluntu lwesayensi. Ngoko ke, ixabiso lethu kuluntu, nokuba luphuhlisa okanye lelona lizwe liphuhlileyo kwihlabathi liphela, alinakuphikiswa, kwaye andicingi ukuba senze umsebenzi omhle kuloo nto. Kwaye ndingatsho ukuba kutheni sifanele siqonde imiba esisiseko, kwaye eyona sayensi isisiseko ingajika uluntu lube lubalulekile, kwaye banokuziqhenya ngaloo nto kangangoko sinako ngesayensi efanelekileyo kwezorhwebo. Kodwa kufuneka sibe nenkqubo ethembekileyo kuloo mbandela. Ndiyaxolisa ukuba ndikwindawo yokuzilibazisa apha, kuba ndicinga ukuba besingafuni, kwaye i-ISC - kwaye enye yezinto endiziqwalaselayo kulo nyaka, njengoko uza kubona kunyaka wam wokugqibela njengomongameli, kukwenza uluntu lwesayensi luzijonge kulo mbandela wangoku. Kuba ndicinga ukuba ukuba sihlala apha silinde size sicele utshintsho, aluyi kwenzeka. Sifanele sikhokhele utshintsho ngokuthi simele sithwale uxanduva lweempazamo esizidalileyo kwinkqubo. Kwaye oko kunzima. Nditsho ukuthi, ukuba uthatha nje umba endisandul’ ukuwuxoxa, kufuneka ucinge ngeeyunivesithi, kufuneka ucinge ngamaziko ophando, kufuneka ucinge ngabapapashi. Kuya kufuneka ucinge ngee-academies. Kukho abadlali abaninzi kule nto ekufuneka ucinge ngabo.

Bupe Chikumbi: Enkosi kakhulu, Mnumzana Peter. Ndiyathanda ukuba uzise inkalo yoxanduva kunye noxinzelelo olukhulu olujongene noososayensi abaselula, njengam, kwezi ndawo, kuba amaxesha amaninzi, ngaphandle nje, uyazi, iimpapasho nayo yonke into oyikhankanyileyo, sixelelwa ngoku njengezazinzulu eziselula ukuba sibe nelizwi kwiindawo zomgaqo-nkqubo kawonke-wonke, kodwa ngamanye amaxesha kwezi ndawo, uyazi, akukho ukufikelela okulinganayo. Kwaye kwangaxeshanye, kwisayensi yokulindela, baya kucela abaphandi abancinci ukuba bacinge ngemiphumo ngaphambi kokuba kubekho uqiniseko. Ngoko ke, ndithetha egameni lolutsha kwihlabathi liphela, ndifuna umbono wakho neBhunga leSayensi yeHlabathi ngoku elibandakanyeka kwimizamo yehlabathi efana nengxoxo yamazwe ngamazwe ngemigaqo kunye nexabiso, into oye wayiqala kwi-ISC. Ucinga ukuba uxanduva lufanele luhlale phi ngokwenene? ​​Ngaba lukwizazinzulu ngabanye, uyazi, njengam okanye wena, okanye ngaba zizikhungo ezinkulu kunye neenkqubo zolawulo ezibumba indlela esetyenziswa ngayo isayensi? Kwaye ucinga ukuba yintoni ethintela uxanduva ukuba lusabelwe kwakhona ekusebenzeni?

Sir Peter Gluckman:Andicingi ukuba kunjalo/okanye. Sonke singabantu kwaye sonke sinemilinganiselo yokuziphatha, ndiyathemba, kunye nemilinganiselo yokuziphatha. Kodwa ngokusisiseko, ekugqibeleni, kukusilela kwenkqubo. Kodwa iinkqubo kufuneka zenze iindlela zokucinga malunga nokuba zeziphi imigaqo esebenza phantsi kwazo isayensi? Zeziphi iimpawu ekufuneka zilandelwe kulo naliphi na iziko? Kufuneka siphephe iindlela ezimfutshane. Ngoko ke, ukuba ndithatha nje – njengoko usazi, ndandingugqirha wabantwana kwinxalenye yokuqala yomsebenzi wam, kwaye ndingusosayensi wezonyango. Isayensi yezonyango, njengoko bendisoloko ndibandakanyeka, ibingqongqo malunga neenkxalabo zokuziphatha kunye nemvume enolwazi, njalo njalo, njalo njalo, njalo njalo. Kodwa ukuba ungena kwisayensi yezentlalo nakwisayensi yedijithali, sibone imisebenzi emininzi ithathwa, nto leyo, ukuba ibisenziwa kwisikolo sezonyango, ubuya kukhawuleza ucinge ngengxaki yokuziphatha, indawo yokuziphatha, kwaye oko akwenzeki apho. Ogqirha bonke bafumana – ndicinga ukuba bonke oogqirha ehlabathini – okanye ngokuqinisekileyo uninzi loogqirha ehlabathini bafumana uqeqesho kwimigaqo yokuziphatha kwezonyango ngexesha loqeqesho lwabo. Bambalwa kakhulu oososayensi abafumana uqeqesho olusemthethweni kwimigaqo yokuziphatha. Bambalwa kakhulu oososayensi abafumana uqeqesho olusemthethweni kwimbali yesayensi, ifilosofi yesayensi. Bahlala befumana uqeqesho nge-bachelor's degree, masters's degree, PhDs, postdocs, kwiindawo ezimxinwa kakhulu. Enye yezinto eziye zavela kwiingxoxo zakutshanje, kwaye i-ISC iza kukhokela, kunyaka olandelayo okanye ngaphezulu, kukuba - ngaba kukho imfuneko yokuba bonke oososayensi bafumane uqeqesho oluphambili? Uqeqesho oluphambili kwimigaqo yesayensi, ixabiso lesayensi, imigaqo yokuziphatha yesayensi njalo njalo, njalo njalo. Asinakubeka uxanduva lomntu ngamnye apho ngaphandle kokuba abantu ngabanye babe nolwazi. Kodwa kwangaxeshanye, amaziko aqokelelwa ngabantu ngabanye. Ngoko ke, uxanduva olusekelwe kwiinkqubo oluyiloo nto uyikhankanyileyo kumbuzo wakho, lukwafuna ukuba amaziko aqonde imiba. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba sibone imizekelo eliqela, kungekuphela nje kwicandelo labucala, kodwa ngokuyintloko, rhoqo kwicandelo labucala, kodwa nakwicandelo likarhulumente, apho imigaqo kunye neempawu zokuziphatha ziye zathotywa. Kodwa yongeza koko, kwaye uyibuzile kwisiseko sombuzo wakho - imigaqo kunye nemilinganiselo kufuneka ibe yeyomntu wonke. Ndicinga ukuba kunyaka ophelileyo ibingunyaka wokuqala apho iGlobal South kunye neChina zidlule khona iNtshona yendabuko ngenani leempapasho zesayensi. Isayensi ngumsebenzi wehlabathi liphela ngokwenene, kwaye ndiyayibhiyozela loo nto ngokwenene. Oko kuthetha ukuba kufuneka sibe nemigaqo nemilinganiselo ebonisa ngokwenene ishishini lehlabathi, kungekhona inxalenye yeshishini lehlabathi. Ngoku, imigaqo ngokubanzi, ndicinga ukuba, isetyenziswa ngumntu wonke. Amaxabiso, kufuneka senze umsebenzi omninzi. Kwaye zeziphi iimpawu eziphambili ezisetyenziswa kwihlabathi liphela? Kwaye zitolikwa njani apha ekuhlaleni? Ndibandakanyeke izihlandlo ezininzi – andifuni ukungena kwiinkcukacha – apho ubone khona ukungqubana kwindlela izazinzulu zeGlobal North ezisebenze ngayo kwiGlobal South. Oku kubonisa ukuba ukuqondwa kokuba amaxabiso abalulekileyo ekuqhubeni isayensi ngawoluntu apho isayensi iqhutywa khona, kungekhona amaxabiso, yimiba ekufuneka sijongane nayo, yiyo loo nto ndonwabile kakhulu kukuba i-ISC ngoku iza kukhokela le ngxoxo yamazwe ngamazwe ngemigaqo nemilinganiselo kwisayensi. Andizenzi ngathi kuza kuba lula. Kuza kubakho iingxoxo ezininzi. Asikathethi apha ngendima yolwazi lwemveli, kunye nezinye iinkqubo zolwazi ezibandakanyekayo. Isayensi ayilo kuphela inkqubo yolwazi esetyenziswa ngabantu. Singathi isayensi yindawo ethile njengenkqubo yolwazi, kodwa asikuko ukuba wonke umntu uyibona ngaloo ndlela. Kwaye kufuneka siqonde indlela isayensi esebenzisana ngayo kwihlabathi lokwenyani nezinye iinkqubo zolwazi. Kwaye loo nto, kwakhona, ixoxwe ngokungazi kwaye yenzeka ukuba yindawo endisebenza kuyo ngabanye abafundi okwangoku, kwaye ndingacingi nje ngolwazi lwemveli, kodwa nolwazi lwenkolo, nezinye iintlobo zolwazi.

UJohn Heilprin: Ngoko ke ndizibuza ukuba, ukwanda kokungavisisani kunye nobuxoki kutshintshe njani iimeko apho amaziko ezenzululwazi azama ukunxibelelana ngokungaqiniseki okanye ngokuvumelana?

Sir Peter Gluckman: Ewe, ngumbuzo oxoxwayo, John. Kukho iingcali endizihloniphayo, ezingacingi ukuba ulwazi olungeyonyani lunempembelelo enkulu, kuba abantu bayayiva into abafuna ukuyiva ngokusebenzisa ucalucalulo lwabo lokuqonda. Kwaye kukho iintlobo zovavanyo ezenziwe ngabantu abanjengoStephen Lewandowsky, abathe ubonisa ulwazi olufanayo kumntu othanda utshintsho lwemozulu okanye othanda utshintsho lwemozulu, kwaye idatha efanayo iya kubahlukanisa ngakumbi kunokuba isondelelane. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba ndiyibonile idatha yolwazi olungeyonyani evela kwiingcali ezinjengoHugo Mercier nabanye ababuza ngokwenene ukuba ulwazi olungeyonyani lubaluleke kangakanani. Yindlela - njengoko benditshilo, ulwazi olungeyonyani luvela kubantu abane-ajenda, ezama ukuphembelela abanye abantu. Kodwa abantu abaphenjelelwa yiyo sele benocalucalulo lwabo lokuqonda, kunye nezimo zabo zengqondo apho, ukuze ziqiniswe. Ndicinga ukuba kukho imiba apho. Ndicinga ukuba banxulumene nabantu abancinci kwaye babanika ingcinga enzulu kunye nokukwazi ukuhlala kwihlabathi ledijithali. Ndicinga ukuba kukho imiba emininzi ejikeleze ukwahlukana kwemibutho yoluntu, ekhuthazwa kulwazi olungelulo, njengenxalenye yokugcina olo kwahlukana kwemibutho. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba kufuneka silumke apha. Ewe, kukho ulwazi olungelulo. Kwaye ewe, kukho imizekelo apho ludida abantu. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba ukuba sithatha nje ingxoxo yangoku yokugonya, eqhubekileyo, ngakumbi e-US, ngaba lulwazi olungelulo? Okanye ngaba abantu benza izibhengezo ngendlela eqinisa ucalucalulo lwabantu? Kwaye yiloo ngxaki endicinga ukuba asiyiqondi ngokupheleleyo. Kwaye ezinye zeengcali esithetha nazo zingaphikisana nokuba lolona lwazi lulandelayo. Nangona kunjalo, siyazi nokuba ukujonga iinyani akusebenzi, ukuba siza kujongana nolwazi olungelulo, kufuneka sijongane nalo ngokudala ukuqonda okuthembekileyo kwenkqubo yesayensi, kwaye senze isayensi ibe nonxibelelwano olungcono. Nditsho ukuthi, enye yezinto ezindenza ndibe nomsindo kakhulu yintetho edla ngokubekwa kwiiyunivesithi malunga nokufunyanwa kwesayensi. Ngoko ke, ukufunyanwa okuncinci, masithi kwi-molecular biology, ngequbuliso kuvele kwiindaba eziphambili zephephandaba njengokunyanga umhlaza, okanye impumelelo yesifo sika-Alzheimer. Kwaye akunjalo. Kwaye uluntu luya luba nomsindo ngakumbi ngaloo mabango. Ngoko ke, ndicinga ukuba lonke, lonke ummandla wonxibelelwano lwesayensi ufuna ukuphinda ucinge. Bekunokuthiwa, kusenokwenzeka ukuba isuke kwimodeli ye-deficit, kodwa andiqinisekanga ukuba isuke kude kangako kwimodeli ye-deficit. Ibizinceda kakhulu uluntu lwesayensi, kwaye ndicinga ukuba kufuneka sifunde okuninzi kwabo bangoochwephesha kunxibelelwano - qonda, kufuneka kube luncedo kumphulaphuli, kungekhona kuncedo lomntu othethayo. Kwaye eso sisifundo esinzima, kwakhona, kwizazinzulu ezininzi.

UAmna Habiba: Kaloku, ngaphambi kokuba sigqibezele, inqaku elinye lokugqibela. Xa ucinga ngeminyaka embalwa ezayo, yintoni enokuvakala ngathi luphawu lwesilumkiso sokuba ubudlelwane phakathi kwesayensi nolawulo lwehlabathi buya kwicala elingalunganga?

Sir Peter Gluckman:Kaloku, asiyi kuyivumela ukuba ihambe ngendlela engafanelekanga, akunjalo? Nditsho ukuthi, loo nto yi-destionalist – andifuni ukuba krwada – andithandi ukuyicinga njenge-destionalist. Nditsho ukuthi, ukuba asinathemba lokuba singasebenza phantsi kwale meko, siya kusilela. Kufuneka sisebenze ngendlela eyahlukileyo kwindlela ebesisebenza ngayo ngaphambili. Sifanele sizijonge thina kunye nabanye abantu. Kodwa ihlabathi lidinga isayensi, yonke into ithethwa kwaye yenziwe. Kwaye, eneneni, kukho uphando olubonisa ukuba abantu abathi abakholelwa kwisayensi, ngokwenene bayakholelwa kwisayensi. Yinto abadla ngokuyisebenzisa okanye abangayisebenzisiyo. Ngoko ke, ingxaki kukusetyenziswa kwesayensi, nto leyo ingxaki ekhoyo. Kodwa ndicinga ukuba kufuneka sizijonge thina, uluntu lwezenzululwazi. Kufuneka sijongane nemiba engaphakathi kuluntu lwezenzululwazi, siqinisekise ukuba luluntu lwehlabathi liphela ngokwenene, sibuyela kwimibuzo yangaphambili malunga neGlobal North, Global South, izazinzulu eziselula, njl. njl., njl. Sifanele siyihloniphe into yokuba kukho ezinye iinkqubo zolwazi apho. Sifanele sihloniphe into yokuba izigqibo zenziwa ziintlanga, ziinkokeli zopolitiko, nabanye abantu. Kwaye indima yesayensi kukubanceda benze izigqibo ezingcono zehlabathi elingcono. Inzulu. Kodwa ukuba siyakuphepha ukuphendula ngokuzikhukhumeza okanye ngokuzikhukhumeza, siyazi ukuba masenze ntoni na kuzo zonke iimeko, kwaye kufuneka basiphulaphule, endaweni yoko, singabaxelela oko isayensi ingabaxelela kona, ukuze bakwazi ukuthathela ingqalelo ezinye iindlela, ndicinga ukuba siza kuqhubela phambili. Ekugqibeleni, ihlabathi liyindawo engcono kakhulu ngenxa yesayensi kunye nezenzo zayo kwiminyaka eli-100 edlulileyo, iminyaka eli-150, ukusukela oko isayensi yanamhlanje yaqala ukusebenza. Oko kuya kuhlala kunjalo. Isayensi iza kuqhubeka nokuphucula imeko yoluntu. Ewe, sinezopolitiko ezintsonkothileyo, kwaye zisenokuba zintsonkothileyo ngakumbi kunakwiminyaka elishumi eyadlulayo, kodwa oko akuthethi ukuba asinakwenza inkqubela phambili. Simele sihloniphe kwaye siqonde ukuba kutheni ihlabathi liyinkimbinkimbi ngakumbi - ukuba ngokwalo ngumbuzo wesayensi yezentlalo - kwaye siqonde ukuba isayensi ingaphucuka ngolo hlobo, kodwa ayizukubuyela kwimihla enzima yeminyaka yoo-1970 kunye noo-80, apho kukho imali engaphezulu kunaleyo ikho ngoku, ngokwemigaqo. Kwakukho imali eninzi. Inkqubo yayilula kakhulu, incinci kakhulu, ilawulwa kakhulu yiNtshona. Kuya kwahluka. Kwaye kufuneka samkele ukuba iyaguquka. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba, logama nje abo bakhokelayo kuluntu lwesayensi, nokuba kusezifundweni okanye kwimibutho efana ne-ISC kunye nebhunga lesayensi lesizwe, bevuma ukuba inkqubo yesayensi kuya kufuneka iguquke ukuze isebenze kwaye yenze oko inokukwenza ukuze kulungelwe uluntu lwehlabathi, ngoko ke siya kwenza umahluko ngendlela eyakhayo. Kakade ke, akuyi kuba lula kwimeko yangoku, apho imeko yezemali inzima, kukho iingxaki ezininzi, njengoko abanye abantu beyibiza njalo. Kodwa eneneni ndinethemba kunokuba ndingabi nathemba. Kwaye ndiyala ukukholelwa, ndiyala ngokupheleleyo ukukholelwa, ukuba isayensi ayinakunceda ekwenzeni ihlabathi elingcono, nokuba abanye abantu abafuni ukusebenzisa ezinye iinkalo zolo lwazi.

UAmna Habiba: Ewe, ndiza kuhlala phantsi ndicinga ngengcamango yethemba kunye nethemba lekamva kunye nediplomacy yesayensi ebangela oko. Le ngxoxo isibonisile ngokwenene ukuba idiplomacy yesayensi ayilondima okanye isixhobo esinye, kodwa ngumsebenzi wemihla ngemihla wokujonga ubungqina, amaziko, kunye nokugweba kwiinkcubeko ezahlukeneyo zokwenza izigqibo. Mnumzana. Peter, enkosi kakhulu ngokuba yinxalenye yeSayensi Diplomat. Bekumnandi ukuba nawe kwi-podcast yethu.

Sir Peter Gluckman: Ndiyayonwabela.

UJohn Heilprin: Enkosi kakhulu.